Vicki Dau (01:15)
Hey there, we are so thrilled to be interviewing Mary Knight in this episode. She is such a blessing to survivors. The work that she has done is amazing. And I just wanted to read a little of her bio before we get started. Child sex trafficking survivor, Mary Knight, L-I-C-S-W, who was pimped out by her parents while growing up in Seattle, spoke.
for the Student Organized Consent Conference in Seattle, the SOCCS, a youth-led conference about building cultures of consent. This conference took place at U Prep in Seattle on March 8th, so just about a month ago. so that's awesome. Mary is a psychotherapist, an author, and filmmaker. Her films can be viewed free of charge on her YouTube channel. If you go there,
and put in Mary Knight, you'll get to her YouTube channel and on her website, Mary Knight Productions. Her memoir, My Life Now, Essays by a Child Sex Trafficking Survivor can be ordered through independent bookstores or on Amazon. So we are so thrilled to bring you this interview.
Vicki Dau (02:35)
Mary, we are so honored that you have taken the time to be with us today. Again, your amazing book. This came out in October of 2022, is that right? Can you tell me, like, how has your life changed since the book came out?
Mary Knight (02:46)
Yes?
that the book made a lot of impact because I already I just wrote it the title is my life now and so I really have such a good life now. One thing that changed is that sometimes people ask details about my abuse and now that I've put them in my book I don't feel a need to answer that question because I've already written it down.
They're extremely triggering. There's three essays that are extremely triggering. Some people want to know the details just because they like to know details. Other people want to know the details because they were abused in the same way. And so that makes sense. They're trying to find out if there's a commonality. And it makes it much easier when I talk to survivors now because they...
I will talk to survivors by phone if they have read my book. And so they already have found out what details they want. So we can talk about the healing, more about the healing aspect.
Vicki Dau (03:49)
awesome
because I know on our end, you know, when we'll, we'll meet somebody new and Vicki starts sharing the history of her stuff. just like, you know, you just, it's exhausting, you know, so it's gotta be nice. It's gotta be nice for you. I can resonate with what you're saying about not having to go through that nearly as much. So it's just a break for you. So good deal on that. Yeah.
Mary Knight (04:00)
It is.
Yeah, I like that. And the other people who like to read the details are professionals who work with clients with these extreme abuse. And so I found from them, they're like, this is so encouraging, because I'm working with someone who's in the midst of it now. But it's nice to see someone who's at the other side and has done a lot of healing.
Vicki Dau (04:17)
Yeah.
And I have, sorry, I'm going to be a little chatty-patty here. I have to say when you spoke on commonality, that's so important in survival for the survivors, you and Vicki, for instance, but also for the partners, right? And because commonality is, for me, it's showing, what's the other C word I'm looking for, confirmation of what happened. And I want to thank you because in your documentary, you brought in Marilyn Vanderbur.
And I listened to her story and it was such a mirror to Vicki's story that it was so beneficial for me to hear. And she carries herself so well and she's so professional about it. for me, it was awesome to hear her story for me because it was confirmation again, confirmation never gets old and you can't have too much of it, right? And for me,
to have you share about Marilyn so that she could share and I could benefit from that was just a really a positive thing. So thank you for doing your homework on that end because it was awesome for me. Appreciate it.
Mary Knight (05:33)
Good, yeah, of course Marilyn, everyone loves Marilyn, former Miss America. she's someone who's hard to discount because she didn't come forward to get fame. She already had it. I mean, back then it was when, it was before the Super Bowl. So the Miss America contest was the most watched show on all of TV.
Vicki Dau (05:45)
Now, really.
Mary Knight (05:55)
And I just was so honored that she granted me. I've had two telephone interviews with her and I haven't had an in-person, but it's been so nice. Yeah.
Vicki Dau (06:05)
Yeah.
Thank you. Thank you for doing your research on her because that was beautiful.
Mary Knight (06:09)
Good, good, yeah, I really like her. In my film, Mothers and molestation, film about child abuse, I ask Marilyn a question that no one's asked her before, which is really something because she's been interviewed so much, but I asked her, how is your relationship with your daughter different than the relationship you had with your mother?
Vicki Dau (06:30)
you
Mary Knight (06:30)
And
she hasn't been asked that specifically, but she has a beautiful relationship with her daughter. And so she was like, it's so different than my mother because we talk, we trust each other. I mean, all these differences.
Vicki Dau (06:37)
Thank you.
Yeah, yeah. I found, if you don't mind me talking about that, the documentary, am I crazy? We watched it together and we didn't know what to expect. We didn't know, you know, where it would go or whatever. So we were, I didn't know if I'd get triggered during it or any. And actually I'd like to point out in your book, you are very good about doing the trigger levels with each chapter. And I want to, I want to tell.
anybody who's listening and thank you for doing that because it is very helpful to almost brace myself if I'm going to do a high trigger warning reading and just know. And I thought that that was very helpful. you know, essay by essay that you did that. but one thing I noticed about the, am I crazy? What's the exact title? My journey to prove if my memories are true.
Mary Knight (07:36)
My journey to determine if my memories are true.
Vicki Dau (07:36)
It's, I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to determine if my memories are true. Okay. I, it's like you almost did the legwork for us to help give us. Who's us? Survivors. It's like you were doing it for all of us as a collective. And I found myself at the end, so empowered.
Mary Knight (07:53)
Thank you.
Vicki Dau (07:59)
Like, and I actually said out loud, I am not crazy. I am sane and my memories are true. I like, I like owned it. I was like, I'm owning, you know, I was like, thank you, Mary. And I felt like you gave me this great boost. And I said it out loud for me.
And it was really powerful and I really wanted to thank you for that and encourage everybody. I've been talking about it to other people. I've been sharing it more like a lot. And so it's really a powerful, powerful documentary. So thank you for doing that as well because it's just really almost dumbfounded to just the rationale of people who are trying to disprove our memories and
That was one of the major struggles that I had in believing my own. I talk about it in earlier podcasts, but I remember hearing, you know, the story of a rape on the news and the comment that was made. Well, what did she do to cause it? Or, and then when I heard about, they were talking about memories returning and the same person said, those are planted by her psychiatrist that like,
Like she knew anything, which I know she didn't know about it, but she just sounded like she had heard probably their stuff and just recited it like it's truth. And that's why it was just, that was a real deterrent for me. would daily question my memories. And so actually what I'd love to bring up now too, if you don't mind, is your project. if that's the right word on YouTube, you have a whole playlist of people who have
recorded with you their recovered memories, the recovered memory cases that you have recorded, true memories. And do you want to talk about that or share?
Mary Knight (09:45)
Yes.
I love to
talk about it because I'm still doing it. now, I'm now at, I, my goal is to have at least a hundred and I'm at about 55 now. And I just talked to someone yesterday who's going to want me to interview her as well. I, the one I just finished editing today is someone whose father was a state trooper.
And he trafficked her. she provided a photograph of him holding her when she was a little baby, but him in uniform. And she did de-identify, so we don't see his face. But that'll be coming out very soon. It will probably already be out when you're pod.
when this podcast comes out. And so I'm interviewing people who have recovered memories because it's just so common. It's so common. it's not only in cases of sexual abuse. One of the people I interviewed, had forgotten something that happened while she was delivering her son.
She had been given a pelvic exam not by permission during the delivery process. And that had been traumatic for her and she'd forgotten it. And she didn't remember it until she was having some healing work done afterwards by a pelvic floor physical therapist, which a pelvic floor physical therapist can treat the same area.
of your body as a gynecologist. So she was having that type of treatment and she remembered. And so she's one of the people I interviewed. And it's a sweet interview to watch because her little baby is sitting there with her. And it was something that happened obviously very recently because he was less than a year old. And there's someone else who was raped in the military as an adult.
It's when something's traumatic, we forget it until we're safe to remember. And there's just so many different people in so many different circumstances. I wasn't getting very many men who were willing to be interviewed. In fact, at one point, I only had one man and he talked about how.
how hard it is for men to disclose. But now I have, met someone who it was incest by his mother. Mother, son incest. And so he tells about that and his remembering process and, and he's a professional, he's written a book on, on his experience.
So, and yeah, I love to interview people. I mean, it's, had someone who was referred by her counselor and it was really empowering for her to be able to just speak aloud about it. So I, all it takes, I schedule a 30 minute zoom session. And so I interviewed during that 30 minute session and then I edit it from there.
usually down to about 10 minutes. And yeah, I have the playlist that anyone can see on my YouTube. It's true memory slash recovered memory playlist. And it's near the top on my YouTube channel.
Vicki Dau (13:03)
Yeah, I went before because you did interview me and before I Did it I kind of went through and I just listened like batch listened, what do you call that? Binge binge listen, but it it is actually really powerful to do that Because it really like you said before it gives you confirmation that you are not alone. You're not losing your mind
Mary Knight (13:15)
Bye.
Uh-huh.
Vicki Dau (13:26)
You know, it is so common, like you said, so common. And I didn't even realize like the timeframe that I remembered my memories was right in the window that is the most common, not that you can remember whenever, but mine was right in that window, like textbook stuff. And that was really helpful to me to have that resource. yeah. So thank you again.
Mary Knight (13:44)
Yeah.
Good.
All right.
Vicki Dau (13:55)
It's really amazing what you've done for so many.
Mary Knight (14:00)
Thank you.
Vicki Dau (14:01)
Like, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So I'm just curious. You have done so many positive and lots of healing. The whole, I think the couple, well, the essays in the book are all about your different healing modalities that you choose at certain times.
Mary Knight (14:04)
Thank you.
Vicki Dau (14:25)
Do you have a go-to that you like? Like if you notice you're getting triggered or are you just have a different awareness that you kind of don't go, you know, is there anything that you love that you, is a go-to for healing?
Mary Knight (14:38)
There's, yeah,
that my answer is so, you know, is long because there's so many different things. And that essay, How I Healed is the longest essay in the book. And it's we did divide it into sections or whatever. But there's just so many different things. People will ask me like, how did you heal? And they want a short answer. And I can't give a short answer because so many different things have helped. But
Vicki Dau (14:45)
Okay.
Mary Knight (15:05)
If just in the moment, you know, I might try and do some breathing exercise. Walking really helps. I have things that I do on a regular basis and I'm sure my life wouldn't be as good if I didn't do them. Like I can tell if I haven't gone on walks, you know, for a while. So I walk 10 to 20 miles a week and just ongoing that helps me. Yoga,
Vicki Dau (15:11)
There you go.
Mary Knight (15:33)
I go to three yoga classes a week. And like the two of you, I have a happy marriage. my husband and I watch the show most nights. And just so we have mostly not so much to watch it, but just to have time to cuddle.
Vicki Dau (15:48)
that's awesome. We do the same, except we don't cuddle because we've each got our private recliners. But we spend every evening, every evening, almost every week, which is so uncommon these days for couples to have that kind that time. But I'm such a believer that quantity makes quality. And so just being together in the room, even if we're not talking, it allows conversation to come up when it should, you know. And so it's great to hear another person doing the same thing. I'm happy for the two of you.
Mary Knight (16:04)
Yeah.
Vicki Dau (16:14)
that you can cuddle and do your TV stuff and just enjoy being present with each other. That's beautiful.
Mary Knight (16:19)
We got, it's like a recliner, it's a recliner for two, it's a chair and a half, smaller than a love seat. So it's just, you know, it's just the right size for us to sit together.
Vicki Dau (16:24)
my
I know exactly
what you're talking about. great. I was just curious, do you have any regrets of anything? do you have any, is that even a thing that it's not really a thing?
Mary Knight (16:40)
Well, the thing that comes to mind is my first marriage, because I was married 23 years and it wasn't a good marriage for me. But I can't say I regret it because my sons, have such good looking sons and they wouldn't look the same if I, you know, if I hadn't been married to their father. So and I learned a lot from that marriage. But I I am I'm so glad I have the sons that I have.
Vicki Dau (16:52)
Yes.
Mary Knight (17:05)
So I can't say I regret the marriage.
Vicki Dau (17:07)
Yeah. That's good because you found the gift. mean, there can hopefully be gifts in the different other different things that we're a part of that are good and bad, but especially in the difficult times to have to find the gift in it. And for you, the gift of the boys. mean, that's, you know, easy to talk about, Good. Good. Can you tell me what three things that you're the most proud of?
Mary Knight (17:24)
Yes.
Well, three things, what comes to mind is each of my sons, I have my younger son, my older son, and then my film projects and book. It's kind of like that's my third child. It's like that's my daughter. So I'm very proud of my films and my book.
Vicki Dau (17:42)
Okay.
Do you have
a favorite film? Because you have many.
Mary Knight (17:53)
No, but I will tell you about the different ones. The first one I did is, I crazy? My journey to determine if my memories are true. And I went back and added some footage to it. So it's longer now. It's about an hour and 40 minutes. And I did want to mention it's been translated into German and French. it's and. I think Spanish is.
Vicki Dau (18:18)
thought there's at least Spanish subtitles
Mary Knight (18:19)
Spanish yeah,
Vicki Dau (18:20)
for sure.
Mary Knight (18:22)
yeah, yeah Spanish subtitles. Yeah, it there it's just it's with the Spanish subtitles. Yeah, French subtitles and German subtitles and The French was just really recent someone did that as a volunteer but Yeah, it's it actually I have it in Polish subtitles but
That's the shorter version, but someone volunteered to put it into Polish subtitles. So I want to, it's very accessible. I like that. And then I did another film and some of the same footage is in the second film, Mothers and Molestation. And that's focused more on healing from the abuse by my mother.
And that's one where I asked Marilyn Van der Beere, how is your relationship with your daughter different than your relationship with your mother was? the thing I like about that film, I think it's easier to watch than Am I Crazy? because it has a mother and daughter on screen a lot of the time. And she is you in Am I Crazy?
probably remember Eleanor Goldstein who actually said that fondling a child is no big deal. Family should stay together even. So well, her daughter and her granddaughter are in mothers and molestation. And I asked her granddaughter a question without knowing the answer. said, were you ever sexually abused as a child? And she said, no, never. So Eleanor's
daughter was extremely abused, but she broke the cycle. So her daughter's never been abused. Lovely. It's just lovely to see that mother and daughter on screen because you can just see, you can just see how much love they have for each other. I sometimes will watch the daughter's expression. And if you watch her expression when her mother's talking about her abuse, it's just, it's just, it's,
I mean, you can just tell how much she loves and respects her mother. so anyway, yeah, that that's one of the things I like about it. And then I also have, I'll put in a little plug for my OK for kids to watch things, I do have a few things that talk about crafts and other things that
Vicki Dau (20:28)
I've seen that playlist.
Mary Knight (20:34)
that kids can watch and I am actually especially proud of mine that is punished for being on YouTube but it's someone saw my YouTube. I was doing volunteer work at an elementary school and one of the kids saw my YouTube which it's not for children but it's also like
There's probably worse things he could have seen. But anyway, I didn't get to do the volunteer work at the school anymore. So the kids didn't have their little art class that I was doing. And so I did that video in response because I didn't want the child who looked at my YouTube and was very compassionate. He said, I'm so sorry for the things that happened to you. It was so sweet.
And so I wanted him to know that he didn't do anything wrong. And I also want kids to know that, well, for adults, adult survivors, can choose whether to go public, you can choose whether to tell other people. But if you're a child and you're abused, you need to tell an adult. You just need to tell an adult. And that message, I think, comes through in a way that
makes sense for kids and I further say that the first person you tell might not might not protect you. So you need to keep telling an adult and tell you tell an adult who takes the steps to to protect you.
Vicki Dau (22:01)
Yeah. Wow.
Mary Knight (22:02)
And I'll tell one other film, is my, I call it my fun film, but Sister Mary's Angel. The two of you might like to see that. It's a nice couples film to watch. It's PG-13, I got it rated PG-13. And it's got a deeper meaning, but it's also fun. It's about identical twin sisters, a nun and a lingerie model who have to trade places so the lingerie model can get medical treatment.
And so she's, she's so the lingerie model is in the convent posed as a nun and it's just a cute fun one to watch.
Vicki Dau (22:38)
Awesome. Yeah, we were looking at some of yours. We just kind of ran out of time before our interview and wanted to make sure we had these things. Do you, are you working on anything right now?
Mary Knight (22:43)
of course!
Yes!
not working on anything. Yes, yeah, I'm mostly I'm doing things to promote my book and my films and and then the recovered memory project with the short clips. I'm not planning to do another long film. They're expensive and time consuming. And as far as writing, I'll probably just write shorter things. I am available. I spoke at a consent conference in in Seattle.
Vicki Dau (22:51)
the recovered memories.
Mary Knight (23:16)
which is not far from where I live. And so that was really good. I got to speak to a lot of teenagers and yeah.
Vicki Dau (23:25)
How was your message received? What did you speak about? What did you speak about? Like what was the...
Mary Knight (23:27)
Really round!
Well, first I was
on the panel, the survivor panel, which I felt really honored to be on. I was really impressed with the other survivors on it. There were four of us. And there was diversity. Rishan is a young man, excellent spoken word poet. And he presented. There were others. And then...
there was someone talking about her sibling, incest, sibling sexual abuse. And so the diversity was good, but
that I think that was well received. And then I also had a session how I healed which gave examples like I did laughter yoga is just where you laugh. You just like kind of force yourself to laugh and it puts you in a good mood. And I did that. I did. They did angry art. They did a lot of experiential things that that I've used for healing.
Vicki Dau (24:24)
For someone who's just recovering their memories, let's say, you know, a 40-year-old or 37-year-old, do you have any advice for them?
Mary Knight (24:32)
take really good care of yourself and get a psychotherapy. I couldn't have gotten well without psychotherapy. So get a support person. And it could be someone younger. mean, former Miss America, Marilyn Vandevere was, I think, 24 when she remembered. It was two years after she was crowned Miss America. so the age does vary. It also varies upward.
Vicki Dau (24:49)
You're right.
Mary Knight (24:58)
I've known people in their 60s who recovered memories. Yeah. And I think I've known one person in her 70s. So it can be at a different age. In fact, someone I presented somewhere and afterwards that it was obvious that this person in the audience was really well respected.
It was, I was speaking to counselors and she had mentored other counselors. She was at the top of her field and she asked to speak to me. And I was surprised at what she wanted to speak to me about is she was just starting to recover memories. And this was time she was retiring. And that's when I guess she had the energy, the mental energy to be able to work on herself in that way.
remembered some abuse, but she was remembering more extreme abuse. So it could come at any time, it could come at a different time, but you just have to be really gentle with yourself during that time.
Vicki Dau (25:56)
Can you explain what a psychotherapist is in case, I mean do you know?
Mary Knight (26:01)
Oh, yeah, psychotherapist
is is I'm using that term instead of counselor. It's a therapist, psychotherapist, counselor, and some like psychologists. Some psychologists are psychotherapists because they do psychotherapy. It's it's if you do psychotherapy, you're a psychotherapist. My background is social work. So my credentials are masters, masters in social work and five years of experience postgraduate.
Vicki Dau (26:06)
Okay.
So if someone's look, if someone has recovered memories or didn't need to, but went through the trauma and needs help and they decide to go find a counselor, do you feel that the counselor person, therapist, needs to have lived that to some degree themselves to be able to counsel properly?
Mary Knight (26:50)
No, because not all my counselors have had the experience. They've had some experience of loss or but yeah, I don't think my current counselor is a survivor. And and I know I've talked to some of my previous counselors who were and some who weren't. So no, think psychology today is a place you look now for a counselor. I mean, because
Psychology today .com and they they have huge listing most counselors are listed on it I'm listed on it and And it's hard to find a counselor the mental health crisis is is very real I I'm full and most many counselors are but go on there and Just you can most of the counselors will let you interview them
you know, have a 10 minute phone call or whatever. And so maybe schedule that. And keep trying until you find someone who's good. And it may not be the first one. It's some people say it's as hard to find a good fit with a counselor as it is a marriage partner. I mean, it really is hard. So but keep trying until you find someone because you really do. You need someone and you need someone who
helps you trust yourself.
Vicki Dau (28:07)
Yeah, it resonates with you, right, right. Would you say that a good way to know to trust yourself is like feelings in your gut or just like almost a physical confirmation? Because I think sometimes in our minds we can talk ourselves out of certain things or go so logical, especially with repressed memories, like it's not possible or whatever it is. But like you mentioned
you know, finding a good counselor, I feel like we know, like in our bodies, we feel like there's a connection or ooh, there's just something about that person and it's not resonating with me, even if you don't have the verbiage to be able to explain why. Do you think it's important for us as survivors to learn to trust our bodies even and the messages that it has? Because I know you got to interview
Mary Knight (28:47)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Vicki Dau (28:59)
Dr. Bessel, thank you. And that's his book, The Body Keeps the Score. And so your body knows one of the big things for me when I kept challenging my memories is I would like make it in my head, I would say, you know what, there's no way that that could have happened to me. And I would feel my whole body scream, no, like don't say that.
Mary Knight (29:02)
Vander Coke.
Vicki Dau (29:24)
It did happen. I would feel it in myself. I think. I do the same when seeking counsel. Yeah. And or anything, though, to use it as a guide. used to I was a clown against drugs like way back in the day. And one of the things they said was, watch for the feeling in your stomach. this might not be a good situation. I, you know, maybe shouldn't.
go to that party or uh-oh, maybe I should leave this party. And I remember that uh-oh feeling that I used to teach the kids about. And it's the gut, you know, on our side trying to talk to us and let us know about that stuff going on with our bodies. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Mary Knight (30:01)
Yeah, those are good points. Yeah, really good points. And I know
you offer services to survivors and that's wonderful. And that may be a place some survivors want to start and then eventually get to where they have individual counseling.
Vicki Dau (30:16)
Right.
One of the things that we have found big time for us is a lot of times survivors think because they went through the abuse alone, they have to heal alone. And depending on where they are and what relationship that they're in, if they're married to a good man, it's important for them to let him know what's going on. Otherwise he walks around 24 seven thinking that he's doing something wrong or
that he did something and that we have found and the people that we've worked with, that it's helpful to try to get the husband kind of on the same page. Because we, to know that he's my oak tree, that no matter what, he's there for me has been really powerful for us. And I feel like sometimes women, either they've kept the secret so long that
Mary Knight (30:58)
Okay, yeah.
Vicki Dau (31:05)
that they can't tell it or they've trained themselves that they can't say anything, that it's not safe to say anything. And they've created a whole story around that. And so they start believing it, even if it, it may have been true at one point, but then now it's, you know, it, yeah, that it's a good thing for them to open up and be vulnerable.
last question. Is there anything you'd like to leave us with? Yeah.
Mary Knight (31:29)
Recovery is possible. just, I can't emphasize that enough that we're doing this. So that eventually we have this good life and I really, really have one now I just feel so blessed. My health has gotten my health is better than most women my age I mean and and that was coming from extreme chronic pain and
I just have a happy life. feel really fortunate.
Vicki Dau (31:54)
That's something we try to share so often with people is you can get to the other side where happiness resides and be in it. And it's so good to hear it and see it in your face. I love it. So, when, and just seeing you next to your husband for the short time that I did in the documentary, just seeing you two together was a smile and a blessing.
Mary Knight (32:12)
Good. Thank you so much.
Vicki Dau (32:12)
And where do you have a
place where you'd love us to get your book?
Mary Knight (32:16)
that's a great question. So either it's on Amazon. So if you like to get things from Amazon, you can get it there. And it's in Kindle version as well as print version. But also, have it set up with another publisher to where it can be obtained at independent bookstores.
to get books from independent bookstores, can get it kindled version or print version from any independent bookstore. mean, they probably they won't have it in stock, but they can order it for you. So either way is equally good to me.
Vicki Dau (32:52)
and tell me what the best way is that we can support you.
Mary Knight (32:56)
just what you're doing, telling people about my films, about my book. That's awesome. I just really appreciate because it has been really a word of mouth endeavor, you know, that people find out about me from other people. And I so appreciate that. Yeah.
Vicki Dau (33:01)
Okay. Okay.
Okay, will do. Our pleasure. Thank you for your time. This has been amazing. much, Mary. Thank you.
Mary Knight (33:17)
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Vicki Dau (33:24)
Thank you very much for joining us on this episode of Reframing Life and Love. We hope you found the inspiration and actionable insights to enhance your relationship. Don't forget to subscribe for more empowering discussions. Until next time, this is Tom and Vicki. Embracing love, fostering hope.
